Letter from Larry

by dpollak on 11/06/2009 · 20 comments

Below is an interesting letter that I received earlier this week and my response.  I’d be interested in your thoughts.  Thanks

Hey, Dale.  Enjoyed your article in Sept. and Oct. ’09 issues of Auto Success about Volatility and Velocity.  I agree.  We don’t broaden our horizons enough, and with a shrinking market share (domestics), we will have to do so in order to appeal to a big enough share of the buying public.  Also agree with your discussion of hiding true wholesale loss.  However, when talking to my sons regarding the broader topic of all “packs”, and your feeling that charging retail in the fixed end to used car reconditioning is wrong.  That battle was over long ago.  NADA and twenty groups successfully justified the case for that on labor, and subsequently on parts, and won that batle and I disagree with you wholeheartedly on bringing up that old turd again.

You seem to be only for velocity at minimum gross.  It is not sin to make money.  If you prevail with your argument for removing all ways to make gross, we will all be fighting over deals at $300.00 gross per deal.  Tell me how that makes sense.

 Regards.   Larry

 

Thank you so much for your feedback.  I completely understand that challenging retail rates for reconditioning is like questioning the religious principles of the faithful.  There are however, a few points in which I respectfully disagree with you.  First, while it is true that NADA and 20 groups put the retail labor and parts issue to rest, I happen to know that this matter is now being reconsidered at NADA.  Of course I do not speak for them, but I work with NADA closely enough to know that there is much discussion and concern as to whether it continues to be the right thing to do today.  In other words, don’t be surprised if you see some modification by NADA on this issue in the near future. 

Now, regarding the issues of packs (retail reconditioning included), it’s important to understand that the purpose of a financial statement is to clearly and properly reflect the operating results of a business enterprise.  To the extent that dealers use packs, create reserve accounts, use reserves here and there to touch up their financial operating results as needed, all you’re doing is denying yourself the ability to see your business clearly.  The most common example of this is dealers showing little or no wholesale loss because they have applied a credit from their reserve pack account.  Do you really think that decisions about future acquisitions and sales benefits from this practice?  I don’t think so- I believe that you are engaging in a practice that perpetuates the errors of your ways.  Wouldn’t you rather see every single transaction for what it is?  I would if I were you.

The retail reconditioning pack, however, is a peculiar animal because unlike most other packs, it’s not a matter of whether the work was done or not, but rather how much to charge for it.  In the past, before the Internet, you had the ability to richly reward your service department and then pass that additional retail rate on to the consumer in the price of the vehicle.  Today, however, consumers are too savvy to pay your retail reconditioning rates as a component of the price that they pay for your vehicles.  In essence, you’re confronted with two poor alternatives when using retail rates for reconditioning.  You can either price your vehicles at non-competitive price points or you can price cars competitively and accept the lower front end profit.  Some dealers would rather do the latter because they believe they pay more commission on the variable gross profit than the fixed.  The problem with this approach is that you then become very frustrated with your average profits and react with the traditional response of raising prices.  In other words, it becomes a vicious cycle which ultimately causes your used car operation to spiral to ever lower return on investment.  Sadly, you really can’t eat your cake and have it too. 

This brings me to your statement that, “If you prevail with your argument for removing all ways to make gross, we will all be fighting over deals at $300.00 gross per deal.”  Larry, I am not removing any way to make gross and profit but rather only pointing out that the way that dealers make profit today is different from the way that it’s been done in the past.  On a recent one of my blog postings, I asked the industry to answer the following two questions:

  • Can you really expect to get lucky on the used car lot as much as you used to now that the Internet has taken hold in the used car market?
  • Can you expect to get lucky on the used car lot as much as you used to now that banks won’t advance nearly as much as they once did?

The answers are no, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t make good money.  So I ask you, how will you make up for the loss of the big grosses that you once got on a regular basis?  Most dealers respond with “volume” but that’s not exactly right.  The correct answer is “velocity”. 

The velocity principle of management says that you stock cars that have the greatest demand and least supply, price them all properly (not all high, not all low) and own them right.  Your insistence on packing cars prevents you from pricing them right (I can prove it to you) and owning them right.  Your packs cause you to violate two of the three most essential principles of making money in the used car operation – proper pricing and proper cost of ownership.

Larry, I don’t mean to be unduly harsh in my response.  I completely understand where you come from.  It’s no coincidence that you are the dad on one side of the argument, while your sons seem to be on the other. I see this movie all the time.  The leading role is played by the dad that has made a lot of money in the past using practices and principles that proved successful.  Today however, the dynamics of the market have changed.  With all respect and care, I strongly urge you to rethink your position on this issue and talk to the velocity dealers that already have.

  • http://www.moberlymotors.com/ Nick Miller

    Dale,

    “Your insistence on packing cars prevents you from pricing them right (I can prove it to you) and owning them right.”

    Jason and I have been talking through this item for several weeks if not months…I would like to hear more on your perspective of proof for eliminating packs. I have had this conversation with my father several times and he, like Larry, believes that our pack preserves profit. I feel that he is off basis in todays marketplace but havent found a way to prove it to him.

    Thanks,

    Nick Miller

  • http://www.moberlymotors.com Nick Miller

    Dale,

    “Your insistence on packing cars prevents you from pricing them right (I can prove it to you) and owning them right.”

    Jason and I have been talking through this item for several weeks if not months…I would like to hear more on your perspective of proof for eliminating packs. I have had this conversation with my father several times and he, like Larry, believes that our pack preserves profit. I feel that he is off basis in todays marketplace but havent found a way to prove it to him.

    Thanks,

    Nick Miller

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    Nick,

    I’m on the run right now, but I’ll be back to you next week with proof, plenty of it.

    Thanks for your feedback. Dale

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    Nick,

    I’m on the run right now, but I’ll be back to you next week with proof, plenty of it.

    Thanks for your feedback. Dale

  • Patrick

    Dale:

    You make excellent points that are crystal clear to me. But like Nick Miller said, even having a discussion on the topic with the old guard is, I’m finding, nearly impossible. I sure hoping your can come up with some persuasive arguements for me (& others) to use. Once you get your presentation together, would you consider publishing a video or audio presentation on this topic for your subscribers?

    I’m a one-year newbie in the family owned car business (1 new franchise 1 used car store), but come from the IT world where we strived for transparency & reality in all business decisions. It was very dangerous for us to cling to long or hard to old cherished ideas that once worked, lest we end up on the scap heap in no time.

    Our basic used car pack is $300 per unit which I actually can live with. Our problem is in management’s servuce department charges. The SVC manager is basically given the green light to charge whatever fees he desires b/c he’s paid directly on this internal “profit.” Somehow every car needs a brake job and lots of other questionable items. We pay the retail shop rates, retail on parts and ungodly sums for details etc. I’m ashamed to say that I’ve even found work done and/or charged for has not been necessary. This system has made a margin monster out of the SVC manager. This makes it nearly impossible to buy cars “right” at auction (a primary source for our satellite operation which I manage) when you know what’s coming from service. But management clings to the idea that we can average a $2K gross with these charges.

    We simply can not convince the management to charge us a competitive internal rate or sell us parts for what they would sell them to other local dealers.

    Nick Miller’s father’s comment about PACKS PRESERVE PROFIT is actually correct however, but it does indeed hinder profitability, turns, morale and more. I have tried hard to look at it from management’s shoes to understand exactly WHY they resist, and think the answer is simple: FOLLOW THE MONEY. The service department derives about $50,000 per month from internal charges. I don’t know the managers pay plan, but you can be sure it’s a small percentage. IMO, management knows and is thinking “hey sure the used car dept. was overcharged by X%, but that’s $X that we don’t have to pay in the sales reps commision and $X that stays out of the manager’s paycheck. It’s simply a tool to regulate the earnings in on the sales end.

    So any suggestions in re-jiggering a plan that works for everyone and promotes internal harmony?

  • Patrick

    Dale:

    You make excellent points that are crystal clear to me. But like Nick Miller said, even having a discussion on the topic with the old guard is, I’m finding, nearly impossible. I sure hoping your can come up with some persuasive arguements for me (& others) to use. Once you get your presentation together, would you consider publishing a video or audio presentation on this topic for your subscribers?

    I’m a one-year newbie in the family owned car business (1 new franchise 1 used car store), but come from the IT world where we strived for transparency & reality in all business decisions. It was very dangerous for us to cling to long or hard to old cherished ideas that once worked, lest we end up on the scap heap in no time.

    Our basic used car pack is $300 per unit which I actually can live with. Our problem is in management’s servuce department charges. The SVC manager is basically given the green light to charge whatever fees he desires b/c he’s paid directly on this internal “profit.” Somehow every car needs a brake job and lots of other questionable items. We pay the retail shop rates, retail on parts and ungodly sums for details etc. I’m ashamed to say that I’ve even found work done and/or charged for has not been necessary. This system has made a margin monster out of the SVC manager. This makes it nearly impossible to buy cars “right” at auction (a primary source for our satellite operation which I manage) when you know what’s coming from service. But management clings to the idea that we can average a $2K gross with these charges.

    We simply can not convince the management to charge us a competitive internal rate or sell us parts for what they would sell them to other local dealers.

    Nick Miller’s father’s comment about PACKS PRESERVE PROFIT is actually correct however, but it does indeed hinder profitability, turns, morale and more. I have tried hard to look at it from management’s shoes to understand exactly WHY they resist, and think the answer is simple: FOLLOW THE MONEY. The service department derives about $50,000 per month from internal charges. I don’t know the managers pay plan, but you can be sure it’s a small percentage. IMO, management knows and is thinking “hey sure the used car dept. was overcharged by X%, but that’s $X that we don’t have to pay in the sales reps commision and $X that stays out of the manager’s paycheck. It’s simply a tool to regulate the earnings in on the sales end.

    So any suggestions in re-jiggering a plan that works for everyone and promotes internal harmony?

  • http://www.polarchev.com/ bill krouse

    Dale-retail recon rates and “packing” on arrival are hot topics for us here at Polar also. I look forward to your additional thoughts and “proof” of concept. Good luck with your first Sunday school class tomorrow. I got to visit the “chapel” last Wednesday-nice set up!

  • http://www.polarchev.com bill krouse

    Dale-retail recon rates and “packing” on arrival are hot topics for us here at Polar also. I look forward to your additional thoughts and “proof” of concept. Good luck with your first Sunday school class tomorrow. I got to visit the “chapel” last Wednesday-nice set up!

  • kkocourek

    Dale,

    We removed all the packs at our Hyundai/Kia store two months ago. The jury is still out on the true results. I will share what I find out at the end of December.

    Keith

  • kkocourek

    Dale,

    We removed all the packs at our Hyundai/Kia store two months ago. The jury is still out on the true results. I will share what I find out at the end of December.

    Keith

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    Patrick,

    I think that you’ve stated the case better than I could do, and I’m sure that there’s a lot of people who appreciate and empathize with your comments. Unfortunately, I think it’s just going to take a while before the wisdom of the practice settles into mainstream thinking. In the meantime, keep fighting the battle, your day will come.

    Thanks for your thoughtful insights.

    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    Patrick,

    I think that you’ve stated the case better than I could do, and I’m sure that there’s a lot of people who appreciate and empathize with your comments. Unfortunately, I think it’s just going to take a while before the wisdom of the practice settles into mainstream thinking. In the meantime, keep fighting the battle, your day will come.

    Thanks for your thoughtful insights.

    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    Bill,

    Thanks. Everyone here enjoyed your visit and input.

    Talk soon,
    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    Keith,

    Thanks. I’m fairly certain that just removing the packs isn’t all that needs to be done. This is because sales people and managers are almost always aware of their cost, or at least their perceived cost. I think that favorable results are dependent upon instituting a program that measures the amount of discount from the asking price per transaction and by sales person. Only once you measure this critical behavior can you expect to manage it so as to create the desired effect. Does this make sense to you?

    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    Bill,

    Thanks. Everyone here enjoyed your visit and input.

    Talk soon,
    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    Keith,

    Thanks. I’m fairly certain that just removing the packs isn’t all that needs to be done. This is because sales people and managers are almost always aware of their cost, or at least their perceived cost. I think that favorable results are dependent upon instituting a program that measures the amount of discount from the asking price per transaction and by sales person. Only once you measure this critical behavior can you expect to manage it so as to create the desired effect. Does this make sense to you?

    Dale

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    Here is an insight from Bob Kamm, a brilliant industry and life coach.

    Dale, have been following the blogging and tweeting on your site about velocity, ceasing the packing of used vehicles and no longer paying retail to the shop. The answer in terms of Service Manager’s pay is the same as what is needed in our healthcare system. We should pay doctors for keeping us healthy, rather than just for treating diseases in the most elaborate way possible. Similarly, we should reward Service Managers for keeping Recon costs down, including comebacks on used vehicles. It’s fine to pay them on gross on warranty and customer pay but not on Reconditioning. We bring them onto the same team with the Used Car Department by rewarding optimal efficiency and effectiveness–bonused on the basis of volume. Now we’re ALL on the same page. Feel free to share these thoughts with anyone you desire. Warm regards, Bob

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    Here is an insight from Bob Kamm, a brilliant industry and life coach.

    Dale, have been following the blogging and tweeting on your site about velocity, ceasing the packing of used vehicles and no longer paying retail to the shop. The answer in terms of Service Manager’s pay is the same as what is needed in our healthcare system. We should pay doctors for keeping us healthy, rather than just for treating diseases in the most elaborate way possible. Similarly, we should reward Service Managers for keeping Recon costs down, including comebacks on used vehicles. It’s fine to pay them on gross on warranty and customer pay but not on Reconditioning. We bring them onto the same team with the Used Car Department by rewarding optimal efficiency and effectiveness–bonused on the basis of volume. Now we’re ALL on the same page. Feel free to share these thoughts with anyone you desire. Warm regards, Bob

  • http://vAuto.com/ dpollak

    More thoughtful insights from Bob Kamm:

    Think about this…if the recon costs went down, but you paid the advisor
    the same amount he’d have gotten at the previous higher cost, you’ve still saved money,
    and you’ve changed their mentality…and it probably isn’t necessary to pay them
    exactly up to that level! Bob

  • http://vAuto.com dpollak

    More thoughtful insights from Bob Kamm:

    Think about this…if the recon costs went down, but you paid the advisor
    the same amount he’d have gotten at the previous higher cost, you’ve still saved money,
    and you’ve changed their mentality…and it probably isn’t necessary to pay them
    exactly up to that level! Bob

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